debate

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Kristen Davis on January 17, 2010 at 11:48pm

I believe the only things worth fighting for (and I use that term in the sense of these are non-negotiables) in Christianity are the fundamentals, the things that if removed would make Christianity no longer Christianity. A few of these, this list is not all inclusive, are:

Jesus is God incarnate and fully God while also fully man
He died and was resurrect on the 3rd day
There is only one God
God is the creator
The Trinity
The virgin birth

Other topics are worth discussing but picking one side or the other does not make someone "not a christian" and as such we should not allow them to cause division in the church.

Permalink Reply by Jason Claus on January 18, 2010 at 5:29am

Would you think it too much to say that any clear teaching in the Word of God is worth just as much defence as another. I totally agree with what you wrote, but just think about this. Heresey is just not the distortion of those things that effect salvation, but the truth of the church. Also think about this, who decided what the fundamentals of the church. Don't think I'm not agreeing witht the so called fundamentals. I agree with them 100%, but when we as a church decide that these few fundamentals is all that is needed to be a New Testament Church. We are in trouble. God never said these are the fundamentals. He said all Scripture is profitable for Doctrine. I personally believe their are alot of unholy alliances between New Testament Churches and churches that have abandoned the clear teaching of the scriptures, outside the so called fundamentals. Separatation from false teaching is not based on just the fundamentals, but the clear teaching of scripture......but be sure it's the clear teaching of scripture and all the Bibles teaching on love, order, and obedience is followed before you take the last resort call of God to separate.

Permalink Reply by Kristen Davis on January 18, 2010 at 2:02pm

I hear what your saying, but the problem is, the non-fundamentals are a matter of interpretation. There isn't a clear cut answere in the Bible for them. There is lots of information, but they aren't necessarily clearly defined. We all read things into the Bible based on our own personal experiences, circumstances, convictions and education. We cannot explicitly decided who is write or wrong in their interpretation when it comes to things outside the issues of salvation. Acts discuss the Jerusalem Counsel. Romans (off hand I don't recall where) discuss eating meat and practices of worship that were controversial. In these discussions it is made evident that diversity within the church is acceptable to a degree. We don't all have to be convicted about the same things, believe the same things or worship in the same way so long as we recognize the saving grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, admit He is God and that He is the only way to salvation (this is over simplified). If it is not part of the core of Christianity then we should not fight and divide over that issue.

As far as what is or is not a fundamental issue, these requirements were given to me by a professor, but I think they make sense:

1. Doctrine clearly taught in Scripture
2. Doctrine centrally or fundamentally taught in Scripture
3. Doctrine supported by several good reasons (Apologetics)
4. Doctrine appears in classic Christian creeds through the centuries

Sure there will be people who disagree on what the fundamentals are, but the original church fathers, those who knew Christ, were apostles or knew an apostle, did a pretty good job of trying to make it clear, through creeds, what was essential to the Christian faith. Why reinvent the wheel? If those closest to Christ believed these things to be fundamental and scripture teaches a lot on them, why doubt them and try to recreate the list on our own? Yes, we should validate everything we believe but adding too many things to the list of requirements causes division and causes stumbling blocks for salvation.

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes unto the father accept through me" (John 14:6). If Jesus is the only requirement for salvation than, in my book, He's the only requirement for Christianity and therefore the only requirement for a fundamental. Only doctrines that deal with Him, God and salvation directly, are non-negotiables and are worth fighting for. The rest we won't know for certain until we're in heaven with the one who knows all.

Permalink Reply by Jason Claus on January 19, 2010 at 6:04am

Amen kristen, thats all I was stating, some limit what the fundamentals of the faith are to 6 or 10 doctrines, I just wanted people to understand that that isn't what the fundamentals of the faith are. I think you clearly defined it when you clarified fundamentals with:

1. Doctrine clearly taught in Scripture (Amen!!!)
2. Doctrine centrally or fundamentally taught in Scripture (Amen!!!)
3. Doctrine supported by several good reasons (Apologetics) (Amen!!!)
4. Doctrine appears in classic Christian creeds through the centuries. (Amen, don't think this one should be used-we are not a church of just creeds, but I understand what you mean by it!!!)

Permalink Reply by Jason Claus on January 19, 2010 at 6:07am

I can give you an example, and I know this will cause debate, but their are some who don't believe in the Millennial reign of Christ at all. That is a clearly taught fundamenatal, yep some like the Southern Baptist convention will still be in fellowship with a church who is outside of the Churches fundamentals

Permalink Reply by Kristen Davis on January 19, 2010 at 9:08am

I'd say a non-fundamental issue would be something like Baptism. Yes, it should be done, but it is not required for salvation (ie. Criminal on the Cross next to Christ). In addition, what type of Baptism, sprinkling vs. immersion, infant vs. adult. You aren't saved by whether or not you are Baptized or how you are Baptized, but some people get really hot over the issue of Baptism.

Another non-fundamental would be females in ministry. Your belief in this, one way or another, does not change whether or not you are saved. It's different readings and interpretations of scripture.

The nature of hell, eternal in nature vs. eternal in consequence (suffering in hell forever vs. suffering in hell for a while and then being annihilated). Your views on this doesn't determine your salvation, they are just different interpretations of scripture.

This are all examples of things that people divide over, issues that have or could cause new denominations to be formed. There is nothing wrong with different denominations, but they usually divide over a non-essential issue (like some of the ones listed above) and then condemn the opposing denomination.

Permalink Reply by George Evans Taylor on January 19, 2010 at 9:19am

Well God is not the author of Confusion and the church needs to check its self ........... the enemy has snuk in and created leaven in the Church, Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. And we have become Doctrine people, rather than believers... And salvation and relationship with Christ and intimacy with God is all based on faith not Doctrine. .....and all of this division in body of Christ is not even biblical and we have reall made a mess of things and we need to do something new and ASK GOD to shake the true believers and speak against Religious spirits and out man made traditions.Mathew 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition....


and Another thing is the church does not practice Church discipline that is talked about in 1 Corinthians and also we sugar Coat alot of stuff and its wrong and I pray against it and we must take these Blinders of we are perishing for a lack of knowledge all over the world in the body of Christ

Permalink Reply by Jason Claus on January 19, 2010 at 10:19am

I'm curious as to why people associate fundamentals with only things that effect salvation? Does the Bible really teach that the Fundamental doctrines of the Faith are only Doctrines that effect salvation. I think studying the word teach and its variables as well as the word doctrine and its variables would reveal that this is a limited way of veiwing New Testament Church beliefs and practices. While their are many teachings that are a matter of liberty and are non-essentials. I think a broader scope of what determines New Testament Doctrine be widened from this association. I say this with love, because the Bible is more detailed in this matter than that. God Bless

Permalink Reply by Kristen Davis on January 19, 2010 at 1:08pm

I may have misrepresented myself. I am not saying that only the doctrines associated with salvation are important, because they are all important. What I am saying is that the only ones worth getting fired up about or dividing over, are those associatd with salvation. Biblical Salvation is the only thing that makes or breaks Christianity. A lot of the other doctrines can and are easily accepted by people who will not accept the Christ was resurrect from the dead or that He is fully God and fully man, etc., but that doesn't make them Christian.

The words fundamental or essential, by definition, are only those things which are absolutely essential to that system in order for it to remain that system. As a result fundamentals and essentials are things that, if removed, would make Christianity not Christianity anymore. That being said, there are plenty of other important doctrines, but they aren't worth dividing over.

I guess its kind of like the body. We have arms, legs, a head, heart, lungs, etc. But not all of those make us a human. Most of our body parts are shared with other animals and many of them can be removed all together and us still be able to survive, but what can we remove and still call someone a human? A heart, yes (not a living human, but still human). Legs, yes (not a fully functional human, but still a human). You get where I'm going.

Permalink Reply by Jason Claus on January 20, 2010 at 5:13am

I encourage you to read the article essentials and non-essentials in the community systematic theology here on liblaw. God Bless

Permalink Reply by Kristen Davis on January 20, 2010 at 2:31pm

There are a lot of people out there who think their view is right, that's why they hold that view. Who am I to say that their view is wrong? Yes, I can sit down with them and tell them what my view is and why I hold it. I can spell out in extreme detail the pros and cons of why I believe my view is correct and theirs is lacking, but at the end of the day, they may not be convinced that mine is the better interpretation. Does that mean that their view is heresy or that I don't consider them a Christian? NO, of course not. It means that we differ in opinions. All I can do is put the matter before them and let them decided, after that it is up to them and God. On the flip side, I would expect the opposing person to do exactly the same thing with their position so that I would have the opportunity to re-evaluate my position and be certain I'm believing what I do for a valid reason, but I don't expect them to toss me out of the church if I don't agree with them.

"There is one correct belief on all issues." I agree with that statement, but I am not God so I don't know what that ONE correct belief is and neither is anyone else who I will encounter on earth (unless Jesus decides to come traipsing in, in the near future). As a result we have to be sensitive to the fact that we may have gottan it wrong, while someone else may have gottan it right.

I thank you for the conversation it has been interesting.

Permalink Reply by Debbie Hasty on January 19, 2010 at 10:57am

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 10:9 I am the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved. Jesus was the word made flesh to dwell among us, John 1:14, to show us the way back to Gods grace. John 14:6 Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Romans 10:9, 10 if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in his heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shall be saved. Vs.10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

These scriptures should be enough for anyone's understanding as they are pretty much self explanatory without debating what has been said. To me these are the fundamentals of what we need to base our beliefs on knowing that the word of God is infallible within what it teaches us through the Holy Spirit. Even a 7 year old could grasp the concepts of what the Bible teaches, but we as adults like to add to and take away from the word unaware that we are even doing so, thus brings in religious debate that usually only produces arguments and strife among the brethren and confusion and separation to the non-believer that wants nothing to do with any of it as they see what it causes others to speak.

It does not matter what denomination or non-denomination you belong to as they all have their own standards of doctrines and creeds they believe in, but when those standards lead away from truth and turn into the imagination of the minds interpretation through traditional teaching of the word then this is what births the debates and arguments. This is why so many want nothing to do with God as all they see is others being judgmental and even condemning in what they say and remember if the salt has lost it's flavor then it is no good for nothing. It's not us that lives, but Christ who lives in us and works through us by His Spirit teaching us all things we need to know for the time and purpose we need to know. Learn how to discern the spirits out there for there are only two, one of truth and one of error. If we do have to debate then do it with love and compassion as I see the love in LIBAW much more than I see in other forums and please give scripture to back yourself up with so others can read it to understand through the Holy Spirit what the truth is.

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